Welcome
Ladies and Gents:

These forums are now closed and registration disabled.

Please join us at our new forum on Proboards. Our hope is that these new forums are more stable, provide more and better features, and allow continuation of the project forums in a safer, more secure, long term environment.

me3explorer.proboards.com

--The ME3Explorer Team

Ideas about EDI and Allers

User-centric area to discuss ideas and request mods. Toolset modders may also float ideas for new mods here; if pursued, the thread can be relocated to Mods in Development.

Re: Ideas.. Ideas.. Ideas..

Postby giftfish » 10 Jul 2016, 16:52

@[email protected] -- Wow, that was a long post. I think I'm at risk of being de-throned as the queen of epically long posts.

Just to make sure that doesn't happen (lol), here's some feedback:


1. Hookup.
Just tossing this in the list for completeness. New readers to the thread should see my previous posts. The relationship is already just a hookup and has no impact on the rest of the game unless Shepard is romancing Liara. If someone moved forward with an Allers overhaul, the existing hookup could easily be removed, if the modder desired. Adding content to turn the hookup into a romance is another story, as there is nothing present short of the hookup. Everything would need to be created from scratch. Besides all the work involved, it would conflict with BackOff due to the types of edits that would be needed. Creating a patch would be possible, but would be even more work and might be a bit difficult beyond that.


2. Mods/Fan-fiction/Canon.
I find most criticisms like this to be unfounded. Mods are optional. Nobody out there is forced to use a mod, and any mod by default isn't canon. Even something that merely fixes a bug still can't be considered canon, as it's not part of the original game.

Equating mods with fan-fiction (I've heard this elsewhere) is laughable. Mods are experienced simultaneously as part of the game itself. Fan fiction is additional storytelling, external to the original work and after the fact. Mods for ME3 almost always use original game assets and therefore have the ability to be 100% immersive. In contrast, the quality of any piece of fan fiction is dictated by the writing and storytelling skill of its author.


3. Character Model.
I'm almost certain Allers uses the same body as FemShep when she's wearing the awful N7 dress, so she actually doesn't have the market cornered on that, lol. A clothing/mesh swap is very easy to do, as Fob pointed out. Generating a new headmorph is possible, but more difficult and would probably involve UModel and 3DSMax.


4. Allers Total Removal.
This has already been done in avpen's mod, of course, so probably doesn't need to be discussed further. It also wasn't what sansuni proposed in the OP.


5. Khalisah/Emily Replacement.
Khalisah would be easier from a technical standpoint since her model is already in ME3. Emily's model is in ME2, as she's in a news video on the Citadel, so she would need to be exported via UModel and then imported into ME3... unless Sir can get cross-game importing implemented :)

Either way, there absolutely is not sufficient dialogue for either one, as they are both very minor characters in the first two games. Allers has a significant amount of dialogue, so it would either need to be cut drastically, or new dialogue would need to be recorded. Or both.


6. Other NPC Replacement.
Replacing Allers with another NPC doesn't make much sense. Allers is there for a specific reason. Tossing in Shiala, Gianna, or someone else simply b/c they are fan-favorites isn't a particularly immersive way to go. Any modder can do what they want, of course, but I think it would be difficult to concoct a viable reason for either of them to be a permanent fixture on the Normandy. It certainly wouldn't fit into Allers existing storyline, nor would it adhere to established game conventions. Kinko adds visitors after certain missions in EGM, but I think they are temporary, similar to how Kirrahe is aboard the SR1 after Virmire.

As far as this Grayson person goes, remember that not everyone reads the Mass Effect comics/novels, and there is no way to create any type of plot check to determine if they have. If they haven't (like me), then they'll have no idea who that person is. Unless a modder is specifically making a mod to add "expanded universe" content into ME3 -- and therefore will specifically attract users who want this content in their game -- it's much safer to keep characters/plot details introduced in external content out of a mod. Otherwise, you risk alienating part of your potential user base who would otherwise might love to use your mod.


6. Level modification.
Changing the appearance of Aller's room into Zaeed's old room is labor intensive. There's no "switch" for this. Every object (static actor) you see in game is hand-placed in a specific location, and that actor is an amalgam of lots of individual exports. Importing new static actors into a file is easier than it used to be, but still difficult. Kinko has done a lot of this for EGM.


7. Quarters location.
I have no problem with Allers being in this location on the ship (assuming she's there in the first place, lol). As a reporter she needs a certain degree of privacy that only a closed door can give. She also needs a bed to sleep in, so she can't merely "hang out" just anywhere. A private room is appropriate. There are only two other options I really see: Life Support (*cough* ThaneMOD/TM-EGM conflict *cough*) and Jack's old hidey hole. Putting her in Life Support isn't much different than where she's currently at. Putting her in Jack's hidey hole with a cot might be feasible, but she'd have to be moved during Ken/Gabby's makeout.

Moving her also isn't a simple task and will probably bork several dialogues, as cameras and the like use coordinates that are level-specific. It's also likely to create conflicts with EGM which edits many Normandy files and already adds a lot of new stuff onto the Normandy in various locations.

--------

Short of doing a simple mesh swap for her body like Fob suggested, any mod would be a significant undertaking. This is probably why avpen resorted to a simple removal in the first place.

A middle-ground might be this:

  • clothing mesh swap
  • new headmorph
  • remove the hookup
This would at least garner her character some professionalism. One step further would be new voice-acting to replace -- but not edit -- all vanilla lines. This would mean no subtitle/lipsync/interplength edits would be necessary, as long as the VA was careful about pacing and roughly matched Chobot. Audio replacement itself isn't difficult, but it will be time-consuming, as every line she speaks across several PCCs will need to be re-pointed to the new AFC created.
User avatar
giftfish
Toolset Developer
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: 08 Jan 2016, 02:35
Has thanked: 129 time
Have thanks: 75 time

Re: Ideas.. Ideas.. Ideas..

Postby giftfish » 10 Jul 2016, 17:01

Sil wrote:It's been so long, and was in one of my first ME3 play-throughs, that I can't remember when it was exactly. I do remember that when I reloaded I tried to keep my responses as close to what I'd done the first time round as I could, just lacking the Aller's fling. It's entirely possible that I made slightly different choices without realising I had made 'better' ones that led to an Ashley romance the second time round, but it could've been some kind of bug or corruption somehow. I'm usually pretty decent at getting the things I aim for in the game, I mean, I got the best possible ending for ME2 on my first play-through, so it was unusual to fail on the Ashley romance, as it's the only time I've failed on any romance in the games over many complete play-throughs. If no-one else has had such a bug, maybe it was just user error, or just one of those weird ones that are inexplicable. I wish I could provide more details, if this was 2+ years ago, I probably could have told you exactly when!

Bugs of this particular nature don't just happen randomly. Not in my experience, anyway.

"Failing" the romance sort of implies something did/didn't happen on the date, since that's where the romance is initiated You could probably verify the problem by checking the integer for your old saves in Gibbed if you still have them.

Don't want to deter the thread further regarding Ash, though. We can continue in the BO Dev area on the ThaneMOD forum if/when you wish :)
User avatar
giftfish
Toolset Developer
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: 08 Jan 2016, 02:35
Has thanked: 129 time
Have thanks: 75 time

Re: Ideas.. Ideas.. Ideas..

Postby Sil » 10 Jul 2016, 17:35

giftfish wrote:@[email protected] -- Wow, that was a long post. I think I'm at risk of being de-throned as the queen of epically long posts.


:D You think thats long? You should see the modding lists I've written up and posted for Total War: Warhammer. One of those was over 10,000 words long, and I did about 6 of those! The aim of this list is mostly to portray all possible ways that a mod of Allers could go, regardless of the time and effort required to do it, which I knew would be phenomenal for some of the suggestions. That's partly why I split it into positives and negatives, to show what is possible and the reasons why doing them would be so hard.

giftfish wrote:1. Hookup.
Just tossing this in the list for completeness. New readers to the thread should see my previous posts. The relationship is already just a hookup and has no impact on the rest of the game unless Shepard is romancing Liara. If someone moved forward with an Allers overhaul, the existing hookup could easily be removed, if the modder desired. Adding content to turn the hookup into a romance is another story, as there is nothing present short of the hookup. Everything would need to be created from scratch. Besides all the work involved, it would conflict with BackOff due to the types of edits that would be needed. Creating a patch would be possible, but would be even more work and might be a bit difficult beyond that.


Fair enough, thanks for pointing that out! I don't mind the potential for a hook up, and a full-blown romance isn't necessary in my mind, but thanks for mentioning about conflicts with BackOff, as I'm certain any mod for this wouldn't want to conflict with that or others such as ThaneMOD, EGM, etc.

giftfish wrote:2. Mods/Fan-fiction/Canon.
I find most criticisms like this to be unfounded. Mods are optional. Nobody out there is forced to use a mod, and any mod by default isn't canon. Even something that merely fixes a bug still can't be considered canon, as it's not part of the original game.

Equating mods with fan-fiction (I've heard this elsewhere) is laughable. Mods are experienced simultaneously as part of the game itself. Fan fiction is additional storytelling, external to the original work and after the fact. Mods for ME3 almost always use original game assets and therefore have the ability to be 100% immersive. In contrast, the quality of any piece of fan fiction is dictated by the writing and storytelling skill of its author.


Much as I said earlier, the reason I added it to the list of negatives is because for someone it could be considered a negative and a reason not to mod it. On a personal note, I very much like the idea of new content being added to the game through mods, I'd love to see expanded stuff for characters in game, brand new characters that are well thought out, new levels, all sorts, as long as they fit the game and make sense within the universe it is in. If it is done to a high standard. It's why I'm looking forward to trying ThaneMOD and Expanded Galaxy Mod when I one day am able to save up enough to get all my ME2 DLC, ME3, and the ME3 DLC for the PC, as I love added content that expands the user experience.

giftfish wrote:3. Character Model.
I'm almost certain Allers uses the same body as FemShep when she's wearing the awful N7 dress, so she actually doesn't have the market cornered on that, lol. A clothing/mesh swap is very easy to do, as Fob pointed out. Generating a new headmorph is possible, but more difficult and would probably involve UModel and 3DSMax.


She does? I remember her head not looking like it belonged to her body, now I know why, she swiped it from femShep! Would a brand new headmorph be necessary? Could instead a different NPC's head be used (a random one that looks nice), but give it a different skin texture or hairstyle to make it look new? This is where my ignorance on NPC modding comes in I'm afraid :(

giftfish wrote:4. Allers Total Removal.
This has already been done in avpen's mod, of course, so probably doesn't need to be discussed further. It also wasn't what sansuni proposed in the OP.


Fair enough. I added it to the list purely for the sake of completion as it's a potential route to go down.

giftfish wrote:5. Khalisah/Emily Replacement.
Khalisah would be easier from a technical standpoint since her model is already in ME3. Emily's model is in ME2, as she's in a news video on the Citadel, so she would need to be exported via UModel and then imported into ME3... unless Sir can get cross-game importing implemented :)

Either way, there absolutely is not sufficient dialogue for either one, as they are both very minor characters in the first two games. Allers has a significant amount of dialogue, so it would either need to be cut drastically, or new dialogue would need to be recorded. Or both.[/u]


That surprised me that Khalisah would be the easier of the two to implement until I remembered that you're right, Emily Wong doesn't even have a model in the game! You're right though, and I think I mentioned it in my list, but there isn't enough dialogue to cover them from the previous two games and as such, they'd require new voice actors. The only possible solution, and one that's likely a bit iffy on the legal front, was if the voice actors of those two have also used the same voice for characters in other games, in which case there are other audio files that could be spliced to give rise to more potential words and sentences that could be used. However, such a task would be beyond massive, legally iffy and likely wouldn't work due to there being varying audio quality consistencies, so it's not something I'd recommend, also why I didn't add it to the list.

giftfish wrote:6. Other NPC Replacement.
Replacing Allers with another NPC doesn't make much sense. Allers is there for a specific reason. Tossing in Shiala, Gianna, or someone else simply b/c they are fan-favorites isn't a particularly immersive way to go. Any modder can do what they want, of course, but I think it would be difficult to concoct a viable reason for either of them to be a permanent fixture on the Normandy. It certainly wouldn't fit into Allers existing storyline, nor would it adhere to established game conventions. Kinko adds visitors after certain missions in EGM, but I think they are temporary, similar to how Kirrahe is aboard the SR1 after Virmire.

As far as this Grayson person goes, remember that not everyone reads the Mass Effect comics/novels, and there is no way to create any type of plot check to determine if they have. If they haven't (like me), then they'll have no idea who that person is. Unless a modder is specifically making a mod to add "expanded universe" content into ME3 -- and therefore will specifically attract users who want this content in their game -- it's much safer to keep characters/plot details introduced in external content out of a mod. Otherwise, you risk alienating part of your potential user base who would otherwise might love to use your mod.


I added this suggestion to the list mostly for if Allers is moved to another room, so it could have another occupant, and I listed all those names as they're just characters from the other games. Whether they make sense or not, or come from novels etc. was a bit irrelevant to the suggestion, as I was merely presenting opportunities for someone to go down should they wish to. Personally, I'd rather see an ME2 squad member taking the room if a reason was given for them to have it or if they were visiting, making it a room for the engineers to sleep in, or giving it to a Geth Prime who makes the odd comment now and again when you walk in about how things are going with the Geth/Quarians, the war, Shepherd's mission choices etc. I think there are all sorts of potential ways it could go if someone wanted to. As I mentioned earlier, I'm mostly just shoving out all potentials so we know what is the best way to go :). I personally feel that the idea is highly unlikely to happen, but I had to add it.

On the subject of completely replacing Allers I wouldn't suggest throwing in a random NPC from the previous games, but the idea of a new reporter to replace Allers is valid I feel, as it is a potential solution to erasing a dodgy part of Mass Effect 3 with a character based off of a valid concept of a war reporter on the front lines. It does have the drawbacks of requiring a decent voice actor who has access to decent audio equipment and the drive to complete their part of the mod, as well as writing new lines to suit this new reporter (unless the modder wanted to just keep the lines the same, just make it a different person saying them).

giftfish wrote:6. Level modification.
Changing the appearance of Aller's room into Zaeed's old room is labor intensive. There's no "switch" for this. Every object (static actor) you see in game is hand-placed in a specific location, and that actor is an amalgam of lots of individual exports. Importing new static actors into a file is easier than it used to be, but still difficult. Kinko has done a lot of this for EGM.


I expected as much if I'm honest, but I felt this suggestion linked in with other parts about giving the room to someone else. Maybe in the future it'll become easier to do such a thing, but right now it's probably too much for too little gain.

giftfish wrote:7. Quarters location.
I have no problem with Allers being in this location on the ship (assuming she's there in the first place, lol). As a reporter she needs a certain degree of privacy that only a closed door can give. She also needs a bed to sleep in, so she can't merely "hang out" just anywhere. A private room is appropriate. There are only two other options I really see: Life Support (*cough* ThaneMOD/TM-EGM conflict *cough*) and Jack's old hidey hole. Putting her in Life Support isn't much different than where she's currently at. Putting her in Jack's hidey hole with a cot might be feasible, but she'd have to be moved during Ken/Gabby's makeout.

Moving her also isn't a simple task and will probably bork several dialogues, as cameras and the like use coordinates that are level-specific. It's also likely to create conflicts with EGM which edits many Normandy files and already adds a lot of new stuff onto the Normandy in various locations.


I'll disagree with you on the location, as I feel that a reporter wouldn't get access to a full room on a ship where space is at such a premium, and I feel she'd just sleep on a hammock or a crew bed like most others on the ship since she's not integral to the running of it, but we'll have to agree to disagree I think! :) If I could, I'd shove her in the Crew Quarters, but I'll admit that I didn't factor in the chance of borked dialogues and level-specific camera co-ordinates. I'd still rather she was elsewhere and the room she has was used for something else, but it's not a simple solution just a personal preference of my own.

giftfish wrote:A middle-ground might be this:

  • clothing mesh swap
  • new headmorph
  • remove the hookup
This would at least garner her character some professionalism. One step further would be new voice-acting to replace -- but not edit -- all vanilla lines. This would mean no subtitle/lipsync/interplength edits would be necessary, as long as the VA was careful about pacing and roughly matched Chobot. Audio replacement itself isn't difficult, but it will be time-consuming, as every line she speaks across several PCCs will need to be re-pointed to the new AFC created.


I think that when it comes to a problem it is often the simplest solution that turns out to be the best one, so I'd agree with your assessment. I'd love to see Emily Wong, Khalisah al-Jilani or a new reporter in action, but frankly, just fixing Allers would be great. A new outfit, a new head and removing the hook up would work fine and make her feel like a more professional. It would leave us with the poor voice acting, unfortunately, but it'd be more of a fix than is currently available and make her a tiny bit more palatable.

giftfish wrote:Bugs of this particular nature don't just happen randomly. Not in my experience, anyway.

"Failing" the romance sort of implies something did/didn't happen on the date, since that's where the romance is initiated You could probably verify the problem by checking the integer for your old saves in Gibbed if you still have them.

Don't want to deter the thread further regarding Ash, though. We can continue in the BO Dev area on the ThaneMOD forum if/when you wish :)


Most likely it'll turn out that it was me being an idiot and making a wrong selection somewhere. It's just strange as its the only time I've ever failed at it, and it wasn't the first play through of it either.
Sil
User
 
Posts: 189
Joined: 15 Dec 2012, 15:29
Has thanked: 1 time
Have thanks: 13 time

Re: Ideas.. Ideas.. Ideas..

Postby Szeryf1592 » 11 Jul 2016, 09:17

I would like casual outfits for companions on Normandy (Ashley/Kaidan, Garrus, Liara) . Only James wearing non combat outfit.
Szeryf1592
User
 
Posts: 5
Joined: 18 Dec 2015, 00:00
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 1 time

Re: Ideas.. Ideas.. Ideas..

Postby giftfish » 11 Jul 2016, 13:34

Szeryf1592 wrote:I would like casual outfits for companions on Normandy (Ashley/Kaidan, Garrus, Liara) . Only James wearing non combat outfit.

This isn't a general "ideas" thread (see the OP). If you want to discuss this idea further, please make a new thread.

----

@sansuni -- This provides a good example of why thread titles should be more descriptive, lol. I've changed yours to reflect the contents of your OP :)
User avatar
giftfish
Toolset Developer
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: 08 Jan 2016, 02:35
Has thanked: 129 time
Have thanks: 75 time

Re: Ideas.. Ideas.. Ideas..

Postby sansuni » 11 Jul 2016, 17:22

giftfish wrote:@sansuni -- This provides a good example of why thread titles should be more descriptive, lol. I've changed yours to reflect the contents of your OP :)


But.. but.. chaos has its merits too. Just saying. :)

Ideas.. Ideas.. Ideas.. was a brilliant thread name. Just too great to be recognized at its prime. :D

Back to the topic at hand:

I think finding someone to re-record Dianna Allers lines with maybe slight alterations (shortening lines where it is utterly annoying, adding a different line where it would make sense and if its possible. I would love it if a Emily Wong reference could be added there, like she is alive and they are working together and so on.) would be the best option, considering otherwise it would be too much work. (and her model needs to be entirely different, that goes without saying.) Maybe her character could be saved trough clever editing. I don't know. All I know is that, she is incredibly annoying and getting rid of her empties up a otherwise perfectly good room.
sansuni
Modder
 
Posts: 157
Joined: 18 Jan 2014, 09:49
Has thanked: 12 time
Have thanks: 7 time

Re: Ideas.. Ideas.. Ideas..

Postby giftfish » 11 Jul 2016, 19:54

sansuni wrote:All I know is that, she is incredibly annoying and getting rid of her empties up a otherwise perfectly good room.

Just a quick sidenote about this. Back when I first tried avpen's Allers mod I was surprised upon walking into her former Normandy quarters, as my brain made the assumption: no Allers = empty quarters. That's not the case, of course, which ends up being immersion-breaking and is my only complaint about the mod. However, my guess is if someone wanted to do the work to remove (hide) the Allers objects and insert a half dozen or so storage crates, AVPen may be willing to include it into a new release of his Allers mod. This would still be a decent amount of work, but it wouldn't be too bad, and it would make the current mod that removes Allers fully-immersive. It would also return the room to a somewhat Zaeed-ish state, and having a room full of additional cargo is certainly immersive. It's not as good as fully decking it out as with Zaeed's DLC, but it is a decent alternative.

Also, just as a reminder, once you change any of the dialogue, then more work is involved. Line length (interplength), lipsync, and subs will have to be adjusted. Retaining vanilla dialogue (while omitting anything undesireable) cuts the work load associated with your suggestion significantly.
User avatar
giftfish
Toolset Developer
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: 08 Jan 2016, 02:35
Has thanked: 129 time
Have thanks: 75 time

Re: Ideas about EDI and Allers

Postby sansuni » 11 Jul 2016, 20:35

To be honest, I really don't like the idea of no-allers mod. I didn't know if it removed all of her stuff from the room or not before you mentioned it, but now that I know, thats one more thing I don't like about it. Don't get me wrong, big or small, I respect the work that has been done and I respect the intentions behind it, but like I stated in a previous post, it is not really a solution, you are just getting rid of something instead of truly fixing the problem.

I am not saying all of the dialogue should be changed (that would be a crazy amount of work and I already stated that's not what I am saying), when or if someone decides to change her voice actress, they should keep almost all of the dialogue exactly the same, but should omit some of her stupidness and should add a single line of dialogue where she mentions that she is working with Emily Wong. (a single line of dialogue should be manageable.) That's all I am saying.
sansuni
Modder
 
Posts: 157
Joined: 18 Jan 2014, 09:49
Has thanked: 12 time
Have thanks: 7 time

Re: Ideas about EDI and Allers

Postby Sil » 11 Jul 2016, 22:28

Personally I don't think the Emily Wong comment is essential. I think if someone was to work on getting Allers re-voiced, they should focus on getting a consistent level of quality for the current script. Anything else is secondary to that. And as far as I remember, they don't work for the same news agency (or it's not specified, again, I could be wrong), so I kinda feel adding in a comment about Emily Wong that way would make the universe feel too small, everyone seemingly knowing everyone. If something was to be added to give Emily Wong a moment in ME3, I'd rather someone tried to build a piece of cut content surrounding her, or to do something to incorporate the promotional content of her death into the game. Even a news announcement saying she died would be something.
Sil
User
 
Posts: 189
Joined: 15 Dec 2012, 15:29
Has thanked: 1 time
Have thanks: 13 time

Re: Ideas about EDI and Allers

Postby sansuni » 11 Jul 2016, 22:56

Sil wrote:Personally I don't think the Emily Wong comment is essential. I think if someone was to work on getting Allers re-voiced, they should focus on getting a consistent level of quality for the current script. Anything else is secondary to that. And as far as I remember, they don't work for the same news agency (or it's not specified, again, I could be wrong), so I kinda feel adding in a comment about Emily Wong that way would make the universe feel too small, everyone seemingly knowing everyone.


You must be joking.. How is someone, and we are talking about only a single person here, knowing someone else from the same line of work would make the universe in any way small?

According to the already existing lore, by the time ME3 takes place, they are both working for the Alliance News Network. (Either due to war or some other reason.) And it would be natural if they somehow met at the headquarters or whatever. (Considering they both work at the same news company)

Also, it is somewhat essential to alter her lines in some fashion. (either by omitting some lines as Giftfish suggested or by some other manner) And adding one or two lines to make her feel more like she is part of this universe is a must. (rather than a gimmick to get better reviews)

For one thing, some of her lines suck, they sound like they were written on the spot (possibly by Jessica Chobot) And I mean, they really suck. Battlespace? "Battletits" anyone?

Sil wrote:If something was to be added to give Emily Wong a moment in ME3, I'd rather someone tried to build a piece of cut content surrounding her,


Restoring Emily Wong's cut content is impossible. Because we think before Dianna Allers was a thing, that spot already belonged to Emily Wong. She is the cut content. She was replaced by an annoying gimmick. (that's what we figure with the evidence we got anyhow)

Maybe someone can add a video of her in the background or something. (Like in ME2) But without voice acting to back even that up, it would leave something to be desired.

Sil wrote:or to do something to incorporate the promotional content of her death into the game. Even a news announcement saying she died would be something.


I think that you are missing the point entirely. We don't want her dead. We are still kind of upset how they replaced her with Dianna Allers and offed her over twitter.
sansuni
Modder
 
Posts: 157
Joined: 18 Jan 2014, 09:49
Has thanked: 12 time
Have thanks: 7 time

PreviousNext

Return to Mod Ideas and Requests

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

suspicion-preferred