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The Cycle Continues...spoilers in here

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The Cycle Continues...spoilers in here

Postby Deager » 22 Oct 2015, 22:52

Spoilers, spoilers of the ending. Even this modded ending, so you've been warned.

All right everyone. Does this work? The purpose of this is to try to fix the ridiculous plot holes at the end of the game. Yes, I know the game is ridiculously full of plot holes in general, but the ending gets fairly nuts. Warning, there's not much sweet about this.



Goals of the project.

Normandy rescue scene: Naw...I don't buy it. It should of at most been a shuttle picking them up. Seemed nuts to me.

Anderson: You never see him running with you, so how did he make it up the beam? Although I don't view that as a huge deal. More importantly, the timing of the banter with him on the Citadel doesn't make sense as you should see him before reaching the controls to open the arms as there is only one path to the controls.

TIM: Seriously? He's what...hiding behind a pillar? I just don't really see that guy doing much hiding behind walls as there is only one path to that final confrontation. Because I don't think TIM should be there, Anderson really can't be either I'm afraid. And yes, I do miss that final chat with Anderson. I'll try to track down all references of TIM going to the Citadel near the end of the game as well. Yes, a plot point left open, but I'm ok with that.

Starkid: Not only do I find that plot twist annoying and stupid, the kid can't act. I mean, he can act better than I can, but professionally for a game? And I can't wait for Shamus to get to that part in his series as I suspect it will be completely ripped apart.
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27792

Beating the Reapers: I know it's a "hero's journey" Shepard seems to be on. However, why would this cycle be any different?

Now, if you read all that and sense the jaded tone, fear not. I have another mod in the works which does about the exact opposite while still, hopefully, mostly making sense. Yes, I know we have MEHEM and JAM and "That's More Like It" already for modded endings but I decided to try something a little in-between MEHEM and JAM. As you saw in the video above, it's a very concise ending and that's what I'm going for in this other version I'll be working on as well. The other thing I wanted was a guaranteed victory ending so people who don't understand the EMS requirements will get to the Citadel Epilogue Mod or just get a sweet ending.

My apologies to all the "details first" people; I'm going "drama first" since I'm sort of stuck at this point given the stuff available in Mass Effect.

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Re: The Cycle Continues...spoilers in here

Postby FemShep » 23 Oct 2015, 03:03

I feel that the rejection ending is stupid when they made it. If he died before it would make sense. That part and the Normandy coming down at the end are the two dumbest additions from extended cut. What is harbinger stopping for 60 seconds?
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Re: The Cycle Continues...spoilers in here

Postby CreeperLava » 23 Oct 2015, 05:20

Interesting ideas, it's good to have some variations for the ending !
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Re: The Cycle Continues...spoilers in here

Postby Deager » 23 Oct 2015, 14:33

CreeperLava wrote:Interesting ideas, it's good to have some variations for the ending !

Thanks for the feedback to you and Femshep.

I wouldn't exactly call this a popular idea people are clamoring for. While working on another ending mod, by chance I realized I had almost all the pieces in place to make the refuse ending, to me anyway, make a little more sense.

I really am focusing on yet another "yay, we won" mod. And I like "yay, we won" mods. MEHEM and JAM are a blast, as is the lesser known "That's More Like It...Kaidanite" ending, and they'll always be better and more iconic than what I'm working on. This is more of a hobby for me than trying to offer something amazing but it'll hopefully scratch the itch of a few players out there.
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Re: The Cycle Continues...spoilers in here

Postby eezonaut » 23 Oct 2015, 15:09

Deager wrote:Normandy rescue scene: Naw...I don't buy it. It should of at most been a shuttle picking them up. Seemed nuts to me.

One of the worst scenes, no doubt. What was it like before the Extended Cut? I think it would have been ideal to be separated from the squad mates before charging to the beam, so the question of their fate wouldn't have arisen at that point.

Deager wrote:Anderson: You never see him running with you, so how did he make it up the beam? Although I don't view that as a huge deal. More importantly, the timing of the banter with him on the Citadel doesn't make sense as you should see him before reaching the controls to open the arms as there is only one path to the controls.

TIM: Seriously? He's what...hiding behind a pillar? I just don't really see that guy doing much hiding behind walls as there is only one path to that final confrontation. Because I don't think TIM should be there, Anderson really can't be either I'm afraid. And yes, I do miss that final chat with Anderson. I'll try to track down all references of TIM going to the Citadel near the end of the game as well. Yes, a plot point left open, but I'm ok with that.

Eliminating Anderson and TIM is a big change and as lousy as that whole segment is, it (the elimination) is not something I'd go for personally. But, if Anderson is to be removed, then I think it would make sense for Shepard not to refer to Anderson at all upon arriving at the Citadel (after beaming up). I think it could make more sense for Shepard to maybe try and make contact with the Normandy or Hackett, if the lip sync could maybe work with alternate dialogue.

Deager wrote:Starkid

Just no.

Deager wrote:Beating the Reapers: I know it's a "hero's journey" Shepard seems to be on. However, why would this cycle be any different?

I think the unique proposition of this cycle is that no one had ever actually completed the Crucible before. If EMS is high enough, it would mean that Shepard really brought together the best the galaxy had to offer as a whole, improving the chances of assembling the Crucible in the best possible manner, resulting in its optimal deployment. So, I think there's definite grounds for this cycle being potentially different. Unless you go the Starkid route and reject the choices, you'd expect the Crucible to fire and for something to happen. Or, it could just fail spectacularly like in your mod, I guess (how disappointing for everyone :) ).

I have no idea what Kaidanite is. Should look it up.
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Re: The Cycle Continues...spoilers in here

Postby FemShep » 23 Oct 2015, 17:22

Nope, before extended cut the beam hit the mako and you saw your squadmates injured but you left them behind. It's how it should have stayed. But people were whining and bitching to see "how they got back on the ship" so bioware fly the normandy down and had like a 2 minute cutscene, directly in the line of fire of harbinger (did nobody see the fact that he just blew up like 20 makos?) to fly your allies off. I don't get why they couldn't just show this as a cutscene AFTER you go up the beam. It blows my mind how dumb it is. The whole time during priority earth they talk about how if they hesitate the end of the galaxy is at hand, but shep is like "yeah i'll take my time". If people could just mod that out of extended cut I'd be happier.

I normally dislike ending mods but that's one I'd accept.

Also if you could make starkid look like the dead virmire squadmate, that'd be better. I have no feelings for the starkid.
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Re: The Cycle Continues...spoilers in here

Postby Deager » 23 Oct 2015, 20:07

FemShep wrote:Also if you could make starkid look like the dead virmire squadmate, that'd be better. I have no feelings for the starkid.


Trust me, I love that idea but I can't imagine how to make it work.

I also don't think everything this mod does is necessary. It's really built off of the larger concept I have for a much happier version. The main reason Anderson and TIM are gone is, I wanted a different type of drama at the end of the game. One where Shepard is very, very alone. That's really the main idea to this whole thing.

Personally, for ending mods, I still think the others I mentioned are better. I just wanted to try my hand at something and see what would happen.
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Re: The Cycle Continues...spoilers in here

Postby KingFeraligatr » 24 Oct 2015, 03:36

I have my own idea for the ending (barring my total rewrite ending choices, which are literally impossible to put into this, as much as I hate to say it) that you may want to try and tackle. While I'd love a humongous overhaul of Priority:Earth, speaking how much plotholes is has and how underwhelming it is (no allies barring squaddies helping you out in battle? What the **** Bioware? If I had anymore suspension of disbelief left at this point, it's gone by the time of of that holdout part.), that sounds too good to be true form what I see of the current tools. Instead, could this be done?:

    First, no Harbinger coming down to kill Shep. While it's smart on Harby's part, it open up too many plotholes to allow the player a chance of victory. Instead, the beam run is a standard cmobat part with Shep and their squaddies, allies, and Anderson (who'd be unkillable in gameplay at this point) vs. a really hard horde of Reaper enemies. Preferably Shep's other reinforcements that are not Anderson and squaddies would come from War Assets and could be steadily depleted. If Shep runs out of reinforcements, they have to go through a hard combat part with only squaddies and Anderson. When all enemies are dead, Shep, Squaddies, Anderson, and all remaining disposable people put on full body armor, suits, and helmets (so they don't suffocate in space). I guess Shep could leave behind their squaddies to try and hold off other enemies that may and try go up the beam, but this puts them at risk of dying (or getting incapacitated in Garrus's case.). Also, Shep would be left with less help permanent help, but it'd be easier to get disposable help up. If Shep chooses to leave the squaddies behind, Shep says a heartfelt goodbye to their squaddies, esp. the best friend/LI if they're in the squad. Otherwise, the squad follows Shep and Anderson.
    All this time, Harby and the Reapers are trying still whooping the allies' asses and trying to destroy the Crucible (when it appears) and the allies. From the time of the beam run to actually docking the Crucible and it firing, Shep is on an effective time limit when not in cutscenes. As time progresses, War Assets get damaged (Shep would know from audio callouts over comms). If you lose too many War Assets, you get a fail ending and the game ends. Also, if the Crucible is too damaged, destroyed, or is unable to fire correctly, you get more fail endings and the game ends. Also, if Shep dies except around when the Crucible fires successfully, the you get another fail ending and the game ends (I'd like for squad members and Anderson to take over if Shep falls, but I don't want to overstress the modders). If the allies and the Crucible can hold out and the Crucible does not remain sabotaged, the allies have a chance at victory.
    After Shep, Anderson, the squad (if they where kept nearby), and any disposable allies board the Citadel (not at that weird, unexplained control room in the original ending, somewhere else that makes more sense), they find themselves on a heavily destroyed Citadel (akin to ME1) and must fight through Reaper forces to get to the Council Chambers to open the Citadel arms so the Crucible can dock. The Citadel is mostly dead, but Shep might find some survivors fighting the Reapers depending how well they did fortifying the Citadel's War Assets. Any survivors will join Shep's team. Also, there might be stream of allied forces if any are left coming fro the beam point. Once Shep gets to the elevator to the Council Chambers, the next part begins. Again, this part would be hard. If necessary, this can be cut down to cutscenes to save time.
    Once Shep gets to the elevator, they, Anderson (who is now killable in gameplay now), and any others board it to the top (and it works this time. They're still in full body armor though). At there, they fight more Reaper forces and possibly meet TIM chilling here (or not, it would have to be decided how much of a plothole it is. I'll handle TIM later though), waiting to stop Shep from carrying out their plans. Regardless though, If Shep can survive, they open the Citadel arms (we'll find some way to make it make more sense, hopefully somehow through Vigil's data file from ME1) and they call for the Crucible to be docked. This allows starts the calculations for how well the Crucible does. If it docks successfully, is protected successfully, and is does not stay sabotaged; Shep starts the firing sequence and a MEHEM-esque destroy happens. Of course, Shep has to defend the Control Console even after opening the arms. I'd assume the Reaper forces would try to take it back. If they successfully take back the Control Console, you get yet another fail ending and the game ends. This part would be extremely hard and would take everything Shep has to win. Also it's fitting, this where Shep first struck a major blow against the Reapers. This place will also be the place they are destroyed. Also, a callback to the best overall ME game IMO (ME1), is nice.
    If the Crucible can fire correctly, let alone get to the Citadel, would depend on how well it can be defended and if it's not sabotaged. The Crucible plans are initially sabotaged (as I assume the Reapers knew about it and would take steps to combat it), and you would have to have the right War Assets to remove all the sabotage. The sabotages I can think of are: it not being able to fire correctly, it exploding rather than working (it would NOT affect the Citadel much, if at all. ME1 says the Citadel is nigh indestructible. Why would that change here? Why follow the way of ME3 and **** all previous lore?), it being an indoctrination device (thank you Marauder Shields comic), and so on. I'd assume all these would be in place, so having the right War Assets to the research how to defeat the sabotage is key. Also, I'd assume you'd need the right "choices" (let's admit it, ME is based on the illusion of choice, not real choice. Real choice is more explored in my rewrite.) and War Assets to prevent further sabotage. Also, you'd need enough War Assets to defend the Crucible to prevent it from being destroyed on the approach and when docked. Do everything correctly, and the Crucible works correctly: as a glorified Reaper kill deus ex machina weapon.

I'm sorry, I'm getting a bit tired of typing and will continue this soon in another post. I want some game time and time for you to see feedback. And as always, I support my rewrite over any mending of ME2/3 canon or mods. This is just me trying to work with what I got.
I call myself the Typo Master. So if you see a typo in my posts, I'm sorry.
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Re: The Cycle Continues...spoilers in here

Postby Psychoray » 31 Oct 2015, 10:45

Wow, that was sad as ****. It's not really my cup of tea, but the more endings the better!

I'm looking forward to your mod that does the exact opposite of this. :)
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Re: The Cycle Continues...spoilers in here

Postby sansuni » 31 Oct 2015, 19:01

I feel it works really well for a very low EMS ending. Just like how it was in ME2 ending, if you are not prepared enough, you and your companions just die before completing your mission. Anderson didn't make it because you utterly failed and he probably died while running towards the beam. (supported by the fact that your companions die during the run as well) Illusive man wasn't there because he is controlled by the reapers and they didn't need him to stop you anymore.

I agree on how Normandy picks up your companions is a bit strange, like you've said, it should have been a shuttle that picks them up while Normandy keeps the reaper occupied. (I believe this was the original intention anyway, there are recorded lines for Joker about this.) In this retrospect, beam run itself doesn't make sense at all. What should have happened is that, instead of reaper just waiting there, shooting its laser beam, stopping and shooting again, conveniently making it look like you have a flying chance of reaching there. (It can devastate entire ships, they wouldn't have any chance of reaching the beam while it was there and since it is so very important that you reach there, at least several ships, including Normandy, would have kept it occupied as long as they can.) Instead you along with everyone else should have fought against reaper ground forces until you get near the beam, then the reaper should have appeared.

I disagree on a few things though. Firstly, Anderson started running with you, it is just that his running sequence is missing, instead of him, you just see several NPC's running alongside you. (a running animation should be added for him) It is entirely possible he made it to the beam before you while you were looking after your companions. (While camera moves towards your companions while they either die or get rescued by Normandy. Maybe Anderson didn't stop for a second and just kept running.) Secondly, I agree that Illusive man's entrance seems a bit strange, but he is clearly there even before you entered the scene (from the way Anderson moves) and invisibility (Tactical Cloak) is a thing in Mass Effect. Since he knew about Citadel being the Catalyst before you did and since he is under reaper's control, it makes sense that he would be there before you, waiting for you to arrive. What doesn't make sense is that, if reapers indoctrinated him to stop you (or basically anyone who would interfere with their plans by using the crucible or whatever), they didn't bother to upgrade him like they did to Saren. He just "dies" with a single shot. Seriously, what were all those reaper implants for? What did he plan to do if you weren't that badly (and very conveniently) injured just before reaching there? It is clearly a plot hole. I really wish we could have our final fight.

I already stated my ideas on the ending, but since others stated their ideas as well, here is my take on the ending (maybe rather what should have been):

Just as you run towards the beam, reaper is being kept occupied by several ships while you and many others including all your companions and allies (they all have recorded lines for it and they are all conveniently missing from the final push) along with Anderson running towards the beam, fighting reaper ground forces along the way. (there are several reaper troopers just after you get blasted by the reaper beam but why not before?) When you get near the beam, reaper defeats the ships and positions itself next to the beam and starts blasting several unnamed NPC's away. (Harbinger taunts play at this point) This is where one of your companions get injured and taken away by a shuttle (if your EMS is high enough, if not, they just get killed) along with some other injured NPC's (instead of Normandy who should still try to keep the reaper occupied without getting shot down, this way it would at least be realistically possible for your companions to be rescued and for you to reach the beam. It can't shoot at both you and Normandy. And unlike you, Normandy fly and dodge. This way the reaper doesn't conveniently wait for cutscene to end.) While you were looking after Anderson already reached the beam and you hear over the radio that someone made it to the beam. Normandy can't keep the reaper occupied forever, so they call retreat (Major Coats doesn't make a comment on how the entire group was decimated, they retreated before that happened, because they are not retarded enough to go against a giant reaper while no one was covering them.) just as you almost getting shot by the reaper. (your armor doesn't magically turn into a ruined version of N7 armor and you are not injured as badly. Regular animations play instead of that ridiculous bent over injured animations. I mean, seriously, if you were shot directly by the reaper, enough to get your armor utterly destroyed, you wouldn't have been walk away from it, injured or otherwise.) After getting shot, your armor is failed (that regular armors down sound play at this point) and you make your way to the beam. Like this:



After you reach the Citadel, Anderson contacts you, tells you he reached the Citadel just before you did. (he doesn't tell you that he arrived after you or that he entered the citadel from a different place than you did. There is only one entrance.) There isn't piles of bodies everywhere. There is only one dead body and the keeper takes his/her helmet off (as it is with the animation), Anderson is just a little ahead of you, there is no mention of dead bodies, shifting corridors or anything like that. (I mean, there is only one entrance on the level) When Shepard reaches the location where Anderson is, the whole scene with Illusive man happens, but it plays out a bit differently. Illusive man was using tactical cloak (invisibility) when Shepard reached the level, but when the dialogue cutscene starts he visibly deactivates his tactical cloak and he makes both Anderson and Shepard point their pistols to each other. I mean, he intends to kill Shepard and Anderson has a gun too, he could just make Anderson do it. (It is something that Illusive man would do anyway) When he says "look at what I can do" he makes them shoot at each other instead of just making Shepard shoot Anderson. (Unlike Anderson who wears a light slightly armored uniform, Shepard still wears a armor, so as long as s/he gets rescued in time, s/he wouldn't die unlike Anderson. But s/he would still bleed a little where s/he got shot. Animation of him/her bleeding is there but there is no reason why s/he would bleed like that, this would solve that issue.) After that, Illusive man takes Anderson's gun, the whole speech plays out, if you go full paragon, he shoots himself, if you go full renegade, you shoot him and if you do the regular conversation, he tries to shoot Anderson and you get interruption option but it is a paragon interruption instead (you are shooting Illusive man to save Anderson's life, why would it be a renegade interruption?) If you didn't do the paragon interruption, Illusive man kills Anderson and points his gun at you, then you get the renegade interruption to kill him (you didn't shoot him to save Anderson, but you are going to kill him to save yourself, so of course it is a renegade interruption, it makes sense.) After Illusive man commits suicide or gets shot, he loses his control over you and falls down, but Harbinger assumes direct control and he gets up again like Saren.. (HELL YEAH) This was the original intention and it would have made the final act a lot more interesting. (I believe, only reason why they didn't include it in the end is because they ran out of time and they couldn't agree on how to do it. Then they lied by saying it would be too videogamey and Illusive man uses his mind and not muscle or whatever. Yeah, he would use his mind alright, by using biotics instead of his muscle. Also since he is under reapers control, he would think what they want him to think and do whatever they want him to do, so what he normally would do is out of the question.) There is even a concept art for it:

ImageImage

After Shepard and Anderson fights him off, Anderson is too injured to go on and he just sits. Shepard goes on and opens the Citadel arms. Whole Anderson speech takes place and then he dies just as Crucible locks into place. Admiral Hackett calls out to Shepard, saying Crucible is not firing (by the way, why do they think it would fire anyway? they don't rightly know what it really does.) Shepard gets up (and s/he doesn't fall down or lose consciousness, s/he is injured but not that badly.) and just as he does we hear a sound that says "Citadel-Crucible interface initiated", and then "Avina" appears. Shepard is a bit confused, but she explains that she isn't Avina VI, she is the VI of the Citadel's core. She calls herself the Guardian VI. She was created by Leviathan's and because of that she doesn't have an interface most species can comprehend. We learn that Crucible served two main purposes, first one was to serve as an interface for the Guardian VI. Second purpose was to be an override mass relay transmitter (normally is not possible to send a signal to all relays at the same time. Also, this would fit with why Sovereign wanted to dock the Citadel to wake up the reapers. Sovereign was going to dock and interface with the Citadel, sending a signal through the relays to wake them up. He failed when Shepard and his crew took the control over the keepers from the Citadel. Since Citadel couldn't control the keepers, Sovereign couldn't send the signal and just got destroyed.) Guardian VI also explains (through the dialogue wheel) her purpose would be incomprehensible for lesser species. (She is meant to put a stop to chaos. Chaos caused by enslaved races rebelling against the Leviathan's. She is the most advanced VI in the galaxy. She is just short of being an AI. She didn't have any limitations at all.) Her purposes were clear, protect, preserve and end the chaos. (She wasn't supposed to eradicate any species at all) She calculated that Leviathan's were part of the problem so she made them ascend, but species freed from the Leviathan's became advanced enough to fight for dominance and caused even more chaos, so she concluded that as long as there is advanced civilizations, there would be chaos and they would wipe eachother out in the end. Since her purpose is to preserve and end the chaos, she made them ascend as well. (She started doing this every 50000 cycles.) Shepard ask her "why are you telling me all this" and she answers that since Shepard severed her connection with the keepers, she can't control the reapers anymore, (she normally served as a network for reapers, reapers obey her as they are one and the same, she told them what to do, with her order they would start reaping or sleeping if you will.) she no longer has a purpose (for a VI purpose is everything) so it is up to you. You can enter commands on the terminal to control them (overriding Guardians commands to give them a new purpose, to serve and protect for instance, they patrol the galaxy and help everyone rebuild, lets say this was the Illusive mans purpose all along) or you could deactivate them (this would basically put them to sleep, as it was stated in ME1 and 2, they are most vulnerable when they are asleep. So you can just destroy them. If it wasn't for Harbinger and collectors, they would have been still asleep anyway.) So you pick your choice and depending on your previous actions and EMS, you get an epilogue. (Just before the epilogue, Joker disobeys orders and comes to rescue you if you survived your final choice, depending on your EMS you might not survive it.) Rest basically plays out like MEHEM. But instead of going to the credits, it goes to 6 months later and you start the Citadel DLC. (Citadel is not damaged since you actually send a signal like the Citadel normally does not there are no explosions.)

Anyway, tools we have now might not allow us to make such drastic changes, but it is always nice to imagine what could have been. If we could accomplish half of that, I would be a very happy guy. (Though I would still like to extend the prologue to its original length and restore Javik's original purpose. He should have been the one who leads us to the Prothean beacon and Citadel coup should have taken place after Illusive man gets his hands on that beacon. That way, story would have made some more sense at least.)

What do you think?

NOTE: By the way, I have been trying to find a way to get rid of starbrats scale thing, but to no avail. We should make a joint effort on that. Figuring it out would help for both the ending mods and for your dream sequence mod.
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